Vanessa Ho, reporter at seattlepi.com, posted an excellent piece yesterday (Wednesday, March 17 2010) about the unfinished construction projects that dot Seattle’s landscape … including Green Lake’s own “The Big Hole.”
[The City of Seattle] is drafting legislation to help give idle construction sites another purpose, including turning them into parking lots and green spaces as well as locations for art installations and mobile food vendors. [ ... ]
Seattle City Councilwoman Sally Clark, who chairs the Built Environment Committee, said a challenge in the legislation is the brevity of memory.
If an empty lot becomes a beloved P-patch or skate park, she said, community members might get upset when it’s time to build new condos. “That puts the property owner in a difficult spot,” Clark said. “You put something in, and people get used to it.”
For Bruce Lorig, the developer behind the Green Lake project, the uncertainty of the credit market makes it impractical for him to turn an empty lot into a public space.
“You have no idea of when you can do something,” said Lorig, whose company took on an ambitious, 120,000-square-foot, mixed-use project with nearly 500 apartments and a grocery store at the old Vitamilk Dairy site.
The project, at Woodlawn Avenue Northeast and Northeast 71st Street, died roughly two years ago, when the grocery store – the anchor tenant – backed out.
“We’re in such an unusual time, where there literally isn’t any money to do development,” Lorig said. “We’re anxiously trying to find (a new grocery), and we will.”
But that’s little comfort to residents increasingly frustrated by the trash, graffiti and general decay that come with boarded-up sites. Many feel disappointed that they didn’t get the promised new grocery store, condos, or retail space. And they feel like no one’s accountable, when properties seem to frequently change hands and developers and owners are out-of-towner.
“It baffles me that it’s okay to leave these holes in Wallingford and Green Lake (and other neighborhoods),” said Janet Stillman, executive director of the Wallingford Neighborhood Office.
She’d like the crater in her neighborhood – once a Safeway, then the location for a new QFC and later a fenced-in pit – beautified with grass and benches. And that’s just a start.
“It decreases the value of homes around it,” Stillman said of the site at Stone Way North and North 40th Street. “It gives people the wrong impression of Wallingford. People get off the freeway, and the first thing they see is this disgusting hole.”
[seattlepi.com]
Green Lake's Big Hole | Copyright Upper Seattle, LLC
I am quite disappointed by the article written by Vanessa Ho.
I spoke to her before she wrote the article and noticed that she intended to take a very negative slant. She refused to acknowledge any positive point and has made our neighborhood seem blighted, which it is not. She chose not to use any of my quotes because they did not reinforce her intended negative slant.
The Green Lake neighborhood continues to be one of the most desirable and sought-after neighborhoods in the Northwest. Yes, we have a large vacant lot that has been dug out in preperation for a coming project that has been temporarily stalled. The property has been well-maintained by the developer. The photo she used in her story was about the worst possible image she could have created to reinforce her negative story slant. The property does not look nearly as horrible in person as her photograph and story suggest.
Of course, the neighborhood needs a grocery store and many of us are disappointed that one isn’t on this property. But, there many neighborhood residents have told me that they are just fine with the property as it is, and don’t care if anything is ever built there. Some are just happy that the old dairy (which was truly a blight on the neighborhood) is gone and has taken its noise and truck traffic with it.
Green Lake continues to be one of the most desirable neighborhoods in Seattle and an amazing place to live. The idea that property values in our resort-like community have been adversely affected by this one stalled development project is simply false.
Michael Cornell
Chairman, Green Lake Community Council
I'm very tired of looking at that hole in the ground, despite what Michael Cornell thinks about the desirability of our “resort-like” neighborhood.
And it does look like the photo above. I walk by it everyday.
Actual residents who use this area stop and talk with each other about the disappointment of that hole in the ground. We joke about turning it into something fantastical… like “Giraffic Park”.
Also, the people who worked at Vitamilk were an integral part of commerce and community for many, many years on that corner. When the dairy finally left, it really punched the businesses that fed and entertained them. Not everybody was happy to see Vitamilk go… or the people who worked there for decades.
i live a block away from the hole. we moved into our apartment almost a year ago, and we were thrilled to find it because green lake is a fantastic neighborhood.
BUT
i absolutely hate the hole. every time i walk past it — which is often — i think about what a waste of space it is. i guess the property has been well-maintained, but there is often trash around/in it and the developer really can't do much about the puddles and mud that follow the rain. there are so many other things that could be done with that property. couldn't billings use it for something? can we get a cupcake royale? what about mixed-use spaces for artists/massage therapists/etc.? bring back the independent movie theater? (ha.) i like the idea of a grocery, but the condos i could do without. anything would be better than the hole, though. or another running apparel store.
I'm not sure I like the idea of people driving with their eyes closed all the way from the 45th Street exit of I-5 to Stone Way and 40th. “The first thing they see”?
I am quite disappointed by the article written by Vanessa Ho.
I spoke to her before she wrote the article and noticed that she intended to take a very negative slant. She refused to acknowledge any positive point and has made our neighborhood seem blighted, which it is not. She chose not to use any of my quotes because they did not reinforce her intended negative slant.
The Green Lake neighborhood continues to be one of the most desirable and sought-after neighborhoods in the Northwest. Yes, we have a large vacant lot that has been dug out in preperation for a coming project that has been temporarily stalled. The property has been well-maintained by the developer, who regularly cleans up debris. The photo used is about the worst possible image of the area. It is not pretty, but the property does not look nearly as horrible in person as that photograph and story suggest, unless you stand in the worst possible place. I walk by this property often.
Of course, the neighborhood needs a grocery store and many of us are disappointed that one isn’t on this property. It is unfortunate that the property owner abrubtly and prematurely booted out great tenants like Sabai Sabai restaurant and tore down the old storefronts on Woodlaen. But, many neighborhood residents have told me that they are just fine with the property as it is, and don’t care if anything is ever built there. Some of us disagree. Some are just happy that the old dairy (which was truly a blight on the neighborhood) is gone and has taken its noise and truck traffic with it. There is a plethora or opinions on the issue.
Green Lake continues to be one of the most desirable neighborhoods in Seattle and an amazing place to live. The idea that property values in our resort-like community have been seriously affected by this one stalled development project is simply false. You need to be virtually on top of that property to even notice the hole. From 2 block away, you don't see it.
Some of the suggestions people have for the property are economically absurd. If we lived in a socialisting totalitarian state where nobody has private property rights, we could take the property away from its owners and put a park or cupcake shop or a swimming pool or some other economically unfeasible or temporary amenity there.
Eventually, the multi-use development will take place on that property. Changes in our world over the last 2 1/2 years and the property owner's inability to work out a lease with Metropolitan Market or any other anchor tenant, have delayed the project for a few years.
Oh, there were never condominniums proposed for the property. It was always upscale, large, luxury rental apartments for the upper floors and retail shops at street level.
Michael Cornell
Chairman, Green Lake Community Council
I walk by the pit nearly every day and it is a total eye sore. I also disagree with Michael. I can't tell you how many times I've wanted to put up a sign that says, “fill me” on all parts of that chain link fence! The future seems grim since they are having so much trouble getting businesses into the other somewhat new complex on Green Lake Way. My daughter would like to see an outdoor swimming pool or an outdoor roller rink!
But that's little comfort to residents increasingly frustrated by the trash, graffiti and general decay that come with boarded-up sites. Many feel disappointed that they didn't get the promised new grocery store, condos, or retail space. And they feel like no one's accountable, when properties seem to frequently change hands and developers and owners are out-of-towner.
—–
Ho raises some critical questions that have no doubt been raised by many others, especially living in the neigbhorhood. By summer of 2007 when demolition of the Vitamilk site commenced it was already clear from the data we were in the midst of a serious housing bubble, as Paul Krugman and others have pointed out. That should have suggested that this and similar projects just getting under way faced growing risks with regard to funding and vendors. We can now look back and ask who was looking after the neighborhood should the project stumble? Certainly not the city (and they, especially, should have been). It's apparent there was no clause in any agreement that placed responsibility on the developer to leave the site in a state that would have been more acceptable to the local community should the project falter. Indeed, I doubt this was ever raised as a concern, even though it should have been by mid 2007.
I think the last sentence above sums up the issue perfectly well – though it didn't have to be that way. The question moving forward is what lessons have been learned so we can avoid these types of problems in the future?
Regarding this claim from one of the posts (which is remarkly similar to Green Lake ads from the 1890's: “Green Lake will be Seattle’s choicest suburb”):
“The Green Lake neighborhood continues to be one of the most desirable and sought-after neighborhoods in the Northwest”
it won't be if we're not a lot smarter about development in the area; and much as people are now looking back and asking how it came about that we were left with that big hole in our neighborhood, in another 5 or 10 years, if that sanguine view prevails, they will be asking how Green Lake became such a congested mess of autos and people.
We have to stand up as a community and say NO to individual property owners throwing their weight around. It's ruining our beautiful communities. That is one of the very wonderful things about Seattle! OUR NEIGHBORHOODS!!!! This owner/developer was granted permits to CREATE something not to leave a huge hole in our community! Given the PRIVILEDGE to destroy on a PROMISE to CREATE GOOD in our community! It's ridiculous that the City doesn't act immediately to protect their revenues so it can do its job protecting our CITY!! Everybody is LOSING so you have to DO something. Neighbors are losing, the city is losing but they are writing off every cent of their loss! This owner does nothing for our community! Let's file suit for the nuisance caused by this blight! Hey City! Condemn the property for the public good! It's embarrassing that this is allowed to happen in our beautiful neighborhood! No private property owner should be allowed to turn an entire city block into a vacant hole in the ground for more than 90 days let alone years and years and years! This summer it will be three years!
Perhaps Hole Insurance should be a condition of a development permit. Or they can waive the fees, but be required to live in it until construction is finished.
The only blessing of The Hole is that there is not a structure which will eventually block my view of Greenlake. I could do nothing myself to decrease the height. We could turn it into a large swimming hole for the summer……
I love the hole! If anything else were there, I'd have to deal with more traffic. I would rather keep the crowds near the lake.
As I mentioned before, it was clearly irresponsible for the property owner and developer to proceed with their demolition so prematurely.
Also, the way they treated their tenants along Woodlawn, such as Sabai Sabai restaurant, was pretty awful.
The idea of changing regulations to prevent these holes from occurring deserves investigating and developing. I encourage ickickickick to do that. I also encourage ickickick to come up with ways to pay the increased cost of those ideas and develop a way to transition out of those temporary uses when financing is once again in place to move forward with the original project.
Also, I encourage deannaerickson to get involved in her community and learn that the community DOES have input into these projects. This developer was very inerractive with the community regarding this project at least as far back as 2006. Many changes to the plans were made based on community input.
I don't pretend that the property owner$ care about the neighborhood, beyond the legacy of income the family will enjoy forever, ba$ed on owning the property. They DON'T care about anyting but the perpetual income the new project will provide them.
But, the developer they hired came to the community many times about this project and made many changes to it, in response to community concerns. Unfortunately, since the project has stalled, the developer's actions toward the community have been dissappointing. They won't return our calls now.
Real estate development is a very risky and expensive business. A large percentage of developments go bankrupt, even in the best of times. Bankruptcy is not the case with this project as it is with many others around town, but a change in the economy affected the ability to get financing and a major tenant in order to move forward. Once they made the poor decision to evict their good tenants, tare down the classic storefronts on Woodlawn and start digging, they had little choice but to stop and put up a fence.
Green Lake is not perfect, but it is also not a blighted neighborhood of trashy lots and muddy pits. Why do you live here if you think it is so bad? There are certainly less expensive places you could live and there are people right behind you willing to take your place here in this great neighborhood when you leave.
Great to see diverse opinions here!
Michael Cornell Chairman, Green Lake Community Council
It's not like Greenlake is unique in having a development get stalled due to the economy. Is “the hole” really less attractive than the former Vitamilk plant, with the trucks strewn all over, and run down buildings & outbuildings? To those who are unhappy with it, please offer to do something about it, rather than just complain. Perhaps you'd like to rally local artists who could paint temporary murals to post along the fences. Maybe you'd like to sign a lease and become the anchor tenant on the spot (there must be some entrepreneurs among you!), or spend your Saturdays & Sundays gathering signatures to send to the grocery company of your choice, showing the community support behind them if they'd be willing to take a chance on Greenlake. What? Is that too hard? Then imagine what it must be like for the developers, who have been working for years now to try to move this project forward.
Another point that seems lost on many folks, is that if construction of phaze one of the project (where the hole is now) had been completed last fall, as planned, we would see many more empty storefronts with “FOR LEASE” signs in the windows.
It is much better for our economy and our neighbohood to have those spaces finished at a later time, when it is more likely that there will be local businesses able to fill them.
Stay tuned!
Green Lake is not perfect, but it is also not a blighted neighborhood of trashy lots and muddy pits. Why do you live here if you think it is so bad? There are certainly less expensive places you could live and there are people right behind you willing to take your place here in this great neighborhood when you leave.
—-
People choose Green Lake because it is attractive – and they want to keep it that way. Inviting them to leave because they're critical of these developments is counter productive, and certainly not something we would expect to hear from the chair of the Green Lake Community Council.
There were clearly mistakes made in the planning for the project. The fact that it was pursued without greater safeguards in the middle of a housing bubble and we were left with the current site is clear testimony to that. Someone above asked where is the accountability for these lapses. Indeed, where is it?
Regarding the project, perhaps, as someone pointed out, there's a silver lining. The planned project consisted of hundreds of new rental units, a grocery store, and retail units, all just a block east of the lake. Anyone who visits the lake on a nice day these days will readily encounter significant traffic congestion at the main intersections around the lake that never use to exist. This especially includes the intersection that now sits at ground zero for development at the lake, East Green Lake Way N. and NE 71 ST, and further west at East Green Lake Way N. and Wallingford Ave. N.
People should be asking what the impact of projects the size and nature of the one stalled will be in terms of additional traffic congestion (including autos cutting through residential neighborhoods to avoid the congestion), pedestrian safety, and auto emissions in the corridors along the main arterials (including the paths that runners use around the Green Lake). Historically, these are not issues the city has devoted much attention to despite the visible impact on the neighorhoods.
I'm curious Michael, do you live in the Green Lake area?
seattlerOcks:
Yes.
And ALL of those issues were studied years ago, right down to the routes and times the delivery trucks would be bringing their products to the supermarket and the anticipated car counts at each intersection and more.
Like greenlakemer, I grow weary of people who simply complain and assume that nobody was paying attention, but who don't get involved themselves to make things better. You can't just assume it's someone else's job.
Are YOU involved in trying to make things better? Of course, we don't knwo who you really are because you haven't provided a real name here. Maybe you are involved????? If not, I invite you to change that. You clearly have some analytical skills and you can express yourself. The community can use your talents.
And ALL of those issues were studied years ago, right down to the routes and times the delivery trucks would be bringing their products to the supermarket and the anticipated car counts at each intersection and more.
Like greenlakemer, I grow weary of people who simply complain and assume that nobody was paying attention, but who don't get involved themselves to make things better. You can't just assume it's someone else's job.
—
Michael, could we see the results of these studies posted on the Green Lake Community Council Web site? I assume this includes projections of traffic congestion/growth on the main arterials and intersections near the failed project conducted by the SDOT.
To be clear, again, neighbors have every right and responsibility to speak out on this subject. The current hole in the ground is the result of decisions made to pursue the project despite the fact there were glaring signals flashing red by mid 2007. The fact the anchor tenant pulled out just months after signing on is clear evidence how shaky things were. The neighborhood has been left with the result. If nothing else, we should be asking what steps can be taken by the city to prevent these kinds of results in the future. Right now I don't see a lot of that going on.
Like greenlakemer, I grow weary of people who simply complain and assume that nobody was paying attention, but who don't get involved themselves to make things better. You can't just assume it's someone else's job.
—
Michael, you and greenlakemer are unique in your views from what I can see.
To be clear, again, neighbors have every right and responsibility to speak out on this subject. The current hole in the ground is the result of decisions made to pursue the project despite the fact there were glaring signals flashing red by mid 2007. The fact the anchor tenant pulled out just months after signing on is clear evidence how shaky things were. The neighborhood has been left with the result. If nothing else, we should be asking what steps can be taken by the city to prevent these kinds of results in the future. Right now I don't see a lot of that type of soul searching going on.
Regarding your comments here:
“And ALL of those issues were studied years ago, right down to the routes and times the delivery trucks would be bringing their products to the supermarket and the anticipated car counts at each intersection and more”
in response to my previous statement:
“People should be asking what the impact of projects the size and nature of the one stalled will be in terms of additional traffic congestion (including autos cutting through residential neighborhoods to avoid the congestion), pedestrian safety, and auto emissions in the corridors along the main arterials (including the paths that runners use around the Green Lake)”
Could we see the results of these studies that addressed “all” these issues posted on the Green Lake Community Council Web site? I assume this includes projections of traffic congestion/growth on the main arterials and intersections near the failed project conducted by the SDOT, the impact on nearby residential streets, and auto emissions – ALL the issues I raised.
Thank you.
Seattler0cks: Have you actually taken a moment to look at the meeting minutes from the Greenlake Community Council meetings posted on its website (http://www.greenlakecommunitycouncil.org)? Below I have pasted some relevant sections from minutes dating back to 2005, which demonstrate the ongoing dialogue between Lorig, the community, and the City. One of these includes a link to the DPD's recommendation, based on all the input! See what a little clicking around on your own can do for you?
September 2005: Ref Lindmark and Michael Cornell gave an update on the Vitamilk property rezone application. A
hearing on this site was held September 7, and a decision will be made in the next two weeks. The
recommendation of the hearing examiner goes to the city council and they will vote on the
recommendation. The GLCC should be proud that 95% percent of the information in the committee’s letter
to the DPD was incorporated into the city’s position. The DPD’s recommendation can be viewed at
http://web1.seattle.gov/dpd/luib/Notice.aspx?id….
January 2006: Representatives of Developer, Lorig Associates and Hewitt Architects gave a presentation on the Vitamilk Dairy property redevelopment. The City Council approved the property rezone in September 2005, finalizing the 1-1/2 year process. The property is now zoned mixed use / retail, commercial and residential with a maximum height of 65’. The retail/commercial business ventures are to be neighborhood friendly in this pedestrian oriented shopping zone. Hewitt Architects is now working on the schematic design of the site. Other goals of the design are to bring activity to the street and to create a pedestrian corridor mid block that will be open to the public. The plan now includes a 35,000 s.f. grocery store and underground parking for 400 cars that will be shared between the retail and market rate apartments. It is anticipated the next public design review meeting will be held in late February or March.
May 2006: Vitamilk Property.
• Tom Bartholomew of Lorig Associates gave an overview update on the
development of the property. The current focus is on the overall design. They
do not yet have a grocery tenant.
• A representative of Hewitt Architects gave a presentation on the design of the
“edges” of the property on 71st and 72nd. He spoke on their view toward the
pedestrian experience especially at the mid-block crossings on both 71st and
72nd streets. They may be proposing a change to the street parking on the north
side of 72nd street to angle parking only.
• The truck loading will be along 5th Avenue, within the building footprint. There
were concerns raised by community members about trucks exiting the site and
having to drive around the block and through the retail area in order to return to
the freeway, rather than exiting back to 5th Avenue for a more direct route to the
freeway. It was explained that another route may not be possible without
blocking traffic and entire intersections.
GLCC Meeting Notes – 2 – May 10, 2006
• Parking on the site will be 400 stalls on 2 underground levels. Parking will be
shared between grocery, retail and residential.
• Groundbreaking is expected next summer, 18 months of construction and
opening of the site in late 2008 or early 2009.
Seattler0cks: Have you actually taken a moment to look at the meeting minutes from the Greenlake Community Council meetings posted on its website (http://www.greenlakecommunitycouncil.org)?
————
Actually, yes, at least where minutes were posted (there are a number missing). And there is nothing in there that is remotely connected to the data requested in a previous post:
“People should be asking what the impact of projects the size and nature of the one stalled will be in terms of additional traffic congestion (including autos cutting through residential neighborhoods to avoid the congestion), pedestrian safety, and auto emissions in the corridors along the main arterials (including the paths that runners use around the Green Lake)”
Mr. Cornell, in response to that request, wrote:
“And ALL of those issues were studied years ago, right down to the routes and times the delivery trucks would be bringing their products to the supermarket and the anticipated car counts at each intersection and more”
I see nothing in your “relevant” sections from the minutes that even remotely address the impact of the stalled projected on traffic congestion on nearby arterials and intersections, pedestrian safety, local residential streets, and auto emissions on main arterials. Where is the analysis and projections for these vital issues?
Moreover, Lorig Associate, Hewitt Architects, and DPD are not in the business of conducting these types of studies. This is the domain of SDOT. And your link to “DPD’s recommendation” above is for a location in West Seattle.
So, back to Mr. Cornell, I'd like to see the studies that addressed “ALL of those issues” I raised above.
It seems like the people who live in the neighborhoods where the awful holes are should be able to force action on this. It is not like the site on Stoneway(in my neighborhood)has been empty 6 months or even one year. That property has been either an abandoned building or a hole for many years. This is not okay to leave and wait for the economy to change.
We need to create a city ordinance that creates a time limit on undeveloped property. If the property is not used for its intended purpose within such amount of time with no plan for foreseeable future, the city can purchase property at current property value. That way developers will be less likely to be reckless in their actions and members of our community will not have to live with these eyesores. The city can create pea patches or parks. I don't think we need to keep it a hole so it is easier for developers to build condos later.
It is not in the best interest of our city and the inhabitants to make things easy for condo developers!
Amen, Melissa. Some of the projects like that on the east side of Green Lake were issued permits by the city well after the housing bubble had popped. Markets throughout the country including Las Vegas, Phoenix, LA, Miami and San Francisco had thoroughly crashed by the time these were issued, and Seattle's had peaked 18 months before and was well into its own major decline. That meant projects just getting underway faced significant risks (In the case of the Green Lake deal, the developer, Lorig, had barely secured an anchor tenant before that party pulled out). Yet none of this appeared to raise red flags with the city, which should have been putting safeguards in place to protect the neighborhoods more if the projects stumbled. They rubber stamped these deals as though it was business as usual.
Seattle is about neighborhoods and Seattle needs to legislate to protect its neighborhoods. It's quite disheartening to hear a neighbor tell me that I should consider moving to a less expensive neighborhood because others are right behind me. Thanks Neighbor! If I make a bad financial decision, boom I'm outta here, maybe bankrupt, I'm immediately held accountable for my decision. So why is this Vitamilk Family Trust and Lorig not likewise held accountable for their choices. Again, it is utterly absurd that the City of Seattle allows a PRIVATE PROPERTY OWNER to DESTROY an entire city block and leave a gaping hole for almost 3 YEARS!!!! We have to force the City to act on this. I'm willing the help, to be active, to put up signs, to do what I can. Where do I join? Where do I sign up? I was so happy to see this blog and see that others are speaking out.
Again, it is utterly absurd that the City of Seattle allows a PRIVATE PROPERTY OWNER to DESTROY an entire city block and leave a gaping hole for almost 3 YEARS!!!! We have to force the City to act on this. I'm willing the help, to be active, to put up signs, to do what I can. Where do I join? Where do I sign up? I was so happy to see this blog and see that others are speaking out.
—-
This was posted late, so I missed it. All very apt observations. Indeed, where is the accountability, especially when you consider the decision to move ahead on this project took place when the housing bubble was already making news and had already burst elsewhere in the country? No acts of god to point to here, just poor decision making.
Again, it is utterly absurd that the City of Seattle allows a PRIVATE PROPERTY OWNER to DESTROY an entire city block and leave a gaping hole for almost 3 YEARS!!!! We have to force the City to act on this. I'm willing the help, to be active, to put up signs, to do what I can. Where do I join? Where do I sign up? I was so happy to see this blog and see that others are speaking out.
—-
This was posted late, so I missed it. All very apt observations. Indeed, where is the accountability, especially when you consider the decision to move ahead on this project took place when the housing bubble was already making news and had already burst elsewhere in the country? No acts of god to point to here, just poor decision making.
[...] wading pool. Her uncle worked at Vitamilk Dairy, which once occupied the area currently known as The Big Hole, just down the street from Jodee’s [...]